Breaking the Cycle: Managing, Embracing and Integrating Anger as a Father | 005

Matthew S: 00:00:00

As a parent, our anger has the potential to play a major role in shaping the dynamic and experience we and our kids share together. This is Matthew Sloane. Joining me today for this topic of anger is Byron Van Pelt. Byron and I have known each other for many years from before fatherhood. We've often talked about our personal experience of life as it relates to business relationships, father, and our families have even met, or kids have played together. So Byron, I am honored to have you joining me today for this topic of managing, embracing and integrating anger. And thank you for being the one to suggest this topic. Welcome.

Byron V: 00:00:35

Yes, thank you so much, ma'am. You're welcome. And thank you for holding the space for this conversation. I'm really looking forward to it. Right

Matthew S: 00:00:42

on me too. Okay, so let's get grounded. And then we'll share our own experience on this topic. So you can find yourself in a comfortable position where you feel your body and a chair or you might be standing still your feet on the ground. If you're driving, keep your eyes open those who are listening in for a moment, just notice what you feel in your body

Matthew S: 00:01:15

there may be sensations like pulsing or temperature that you are aware of. There may be aches

Matthew S: 00:01:29

notice the quality of your breathing without changing it for now.

Matthew S: 00:01:38

Notice your posture and then to become more present for us in the call. And for those listening. Make any adjustment that feels good to you for your posture and your breathing.

Matthew S: 00:02:02

And when you're ready, bring yourself back to the conversation

Matthew S: 00:02:13

all right, you ready to go Byron?

Byron V: 00:02:14

I am indeed ready. Let's go. Okay,

Matthew S: 00:02:17

so we're gonna do a check in recent fatherhood wins and woes. Please include your kids names and ages. So why don't you go first?

Byron V: 00:02:28

We got Charlotte. She's six. Yeah, Henry. He's four. And I'm debating whether I want to share the lows of the winds first. I think the winds start with we have the I guess the word is the privilege. It's it's been a privilege for me to watch Charlotte get homeschooled by Bethany, we live in an RV full time. So we travel around the country full time in the RV. So we're all super, super, super close to one another. And watching not just the growth that Charlotte's gone through. But that Bethany has experienced my wife, with helping her with that has been tremendous. And then for me, as soon as I have an opportunity, at the end of my day, to check in and to connect with her and to help her with her reading her math, everything she's up to. For me the biggest win is just watching not the comprehension. That's amazing. It's watching her face light up as she gets she gets that little light bulb moment that smile, cracks across her face. And it's that feeling of Dad Look Look what I'm I'm better at this now. I'm learning something. And I love that watching her grow with that is it's been tremendous. Henry as well. He's He's starting to finally learn is like ABCs and one two threes. And that's been as the joy to watch with him. His vocabulary is shot through the roof. We've been working with him a lot on his language is is enunciation. And just being able to communicate. And watching him as personality really start to shine has been a bit when I think the biggest whoa is is directly connected to that at the same time because in an RV space is a luxury you don't have we're in Florida, where it's like insanely hot every day and intense humidity so you don't get to go out and explore as much as I would have liked around like now and so because you're on top of each other because I'm connected and we're all here in close proximity. There. There are days where it's a beautiful topic with anger. There's there's days where establishing boundaries. Establishing This is my space. This is my time I'm doing this can be super challenging for me. And I had a conversation with Bethany just last night we were talking about this A dynamic of her wanting to share more of what she's up to, and looking for a connection around with, I'm with these two little kids in this tiny space all day. And I'm simultaneously building a business, I'm connecting with clients and connecting with, with new people. And so I'm getting my, the connections that I need, basically, say she at each day, she's not. And so what completely different ends of the spectrum. And so I think one of the biggest challenges for me right now is been navigating that the boundaries of this is my space, this is what you're up to. But then also, even though we're in such tight proximity, we're at opposite ends of the spectrum frequently with what we're going through on a day to day. So the biggest Whoa, for me,

Matthew S: 00:05:54

those are great. Thanks, Byron. So sweet, too, I was seeing your daughter's face, as you were describing her wedding up in those learning moments. So for me, I'd say wins really recent. So I think I've even this morning, these are little moments, but I gathered that they make a big difference in my kids lives. So this morning, I took her to school. And the day before, when I take picked her up, she had left something that she really cared about. And it was a string. It was this is like orange piece of string. And I was like, Look, I understand how small things can be really important sometimes, let's go to that spot where you left it in the morning. And this morning, I happened to be super rushed, because my wife needed me to take both kids to school. So I had to move through that through breakfast, all the stuff. And I really didn't have time for this kind of thing. So I just negotiated that with her. I was like, Look, I'm going to drop you off, we're gonna go to that place where the string is. And then I'm gonna have to say goodbye much faster than I normally do. Do you want me to do that say goodbye to you fast? Or do you want to skip the string and have a little more of a hug goodbye, like we normally do. And she's like, I want the strength. So I was like, Cool. I that's all good. We'll hug it out later, maybe. And so we got there, the string was there. And it was just like it was such a sweet, weird little moment. And I was like, I'm so glad that we got to choose this together. She got the string, it's important to her if she hadn't, that would have been a whole other experience. We could have navigated, but it was there she got to school was all good. So awesome. I felt good about the way I handled that that was a win for me. My little guy is about two and a half years old. He is going through a really hard time with falling asleep. I think he's feeling afraid. Like he can't do it, even though he's sharing a room with his sister now, which could be part of a transitioning challenge. But anyway, we're just super attentive to like, what can we do to make this easy for him. And I was very proud of the way that both my wife and I were being with him last night as he was going through that challenge of getting to sleep. Just find respectful. I'm sure there's more to say about that on the topic of anger. So we'll hold more of that later. But on the Whoa side. I mean, really, it's more just ate less with the kids right now it's more, I wish I had more time with my wife Sookie. And that is always a challenge to find the time in the midst of our running the household running all the stuff that needs to happen for the kids. So intention is there for both of us, which feels good, but it is a word that it hasn't been prioritized. So I feel sadness around that. And yeah, I'll leave it at that for now.

Byron V: 00:08:48

Yes, totally connect to that.

Matthew S: 00:08:50

Yeah. All right. Well, let's jump in. I'm going to ask you this first question by you brought this topic managing, embracing and integrating anger. And I want to just ask you first, like, what makes this topic so important for you?

Byron V: 00:09:04

It's a great question. This is critically important, because I know through direct experience that my father had a lot of anger that would have rubbed in him. And I'm guessing and just kind of reflecting anecdotally that his father had a lot of anger directed at him. And I'm assuming I can trace that back. You know, 1020 all generations. And so for me, it's my importance, the meaning that I attached to it is, well, I have an opportunity to ideally break the chain. And in a less effective sense, maybe do it less often or less frequently and just embody something different for Charlotte and Henry, and I know through experience and one of the most important things is me, telling, telling them, Hey, here's something that's really helped me in my life. Here's something that if I can just ingrained in you, and show you and get you to think it'll really help you, and they're always ready to receive it, they're always ready to listen, and to do their best to integrate it. And yet, I also know through experience that that pales in comparison to what I'm actually living on a daily basis. And the moments are so beautiful when the there's intense spikes of joy and love and connection and memories and hopefully forging with them. And when I look in their eyes and their smiles, or when I'm concluded work for the day, and Dad, dad, dad, the moments like that, and I'm mentally weighing them against the, the moments when I'm angry with them. And it's not that these moments are frequent, but they're almost always intense, intense for me, oh, they must be intense for them. And I'm just wondering, how often is the the beautiful spikes on that, on that chart of wonderful moments? How does it compare? How does it stack up to the spikes of intense negative emotion, and I don't expect myself to be this perfectly grounded person in all times. And at the same time, I know that it's my responsibility to create the relationship that I want to have with my kids and to embody, not just based on our dynamic, but what's possible for them, and how they go out and interact with the world. So that's why it's really important topic for me.

Matthew S: 00:11:37

I love that. Yeah, that lineage piece speaks to me generationally, like what's been passed down. Anger wise, what's been familiar and habituated by parents and grandparents and all before. For me, this topic is really important. I, if anyone knows the Enneagram, I'm mostly a nine. And so the idea of harmony is like my ideal. And so the idea of anger is almost, you know, for most of my life has been the antithesis of harmony. So anger, and I have not been friends. And that's shown up in different ways. But essentially, it means that when I get angry, I'm very uncomfortable with that feeling. So this is important to me, because on some level, I understand deeper down that emotions are not necessarily a problem. They're just energy. And they're moving through me. And maybe there's a message or something for me to be curious about. And I want to be able to relate to emotions in general. But anger being that time one, that's my challenge, why not relate to anger in a way that is healthy, and clear and less strapped with burden by just having the feeling like, it's hard enough to be angry, and then to have like, the shame, as I would put it. Alongside that adds this complexity where I'm like, I could easily get taken out of the moment and lose my connection to my kids. I would love to like you model. I want to model what it means to move with an emotion in a healthy way.

Byron V: 00:13:28

That resonates with me, even hearing you say that I can recognize, wow, there are two layers to it. It's not just the anger. It's the shame, like you said around the anger for me. And that's a big one. It's you're bringing up an excellent point that the more I introspect on it, reflect on it, not analyze it, not justify it, not attempt to dissect, you know, why do I get angry or come up with boundaries? And the next time I'm angry, I'm gonna do Yeah, I think that can be, it can be useful. It's better than nothing. But to your point, looking at that outer layer of will what what's my relationship to the anchor and what is the shame, the regret the the Ill Will that I have toward myself, I remember watching Henry play with Legos earlier in the year, and I was just struck by how beautiful it was to watch this child build something. And as to be so intentional, in just so in the moment, building, creating having fun, and I just stopped looking at what he was creating. And I just looked at him. And I just felt intense love for the guy. And I was talking to a dear friend of mine about this moment. And he said, When you hold your son in that bowl mitt, is there anything he could do? Is there anything he could say that could ever disrupt that love that you have for him? And I said, No, of course not. And he said, I'll never forget, he said, Do you look at yourself the same way? Hmm. And immediately know, my

Matthew S: 00:15:22

chills? Yeah,

Byron V: 00:15:23

there's a lot that I say that disrupts that, that love. There's a lot of, I don't deserve that. There's a lot of that communication that I give myself. And he had said, if you can shift your relationship with yourself, I guarantee it's going to impact your relationship with him. And I, I, it's such a beautiful topic, because me knowing that and even reading books on that, and understanding communication and the way that we talk to ourselves, and like parenting, it's so intensely personal. It's so right there, it's very hard to get distance from it, because we're inundated by it. Especially for us, because we don't, we're with our kids frequently. Rarely do we have family watch them or a babysitter. It's rarely it's mostly just us. And so that constantly being in it has also been a challenge as well. And there's this little moments when I can start to finally see clearly enough, but that was one of the moments that really resonated with me.

Matthew S: 00:16:38

Yeah, that's sweet. And I did I got chills, and he said, that piece around my heart, he never would, what is it? How do you do that for yourself? Or do you do that for yourself? Yes.

Byron V: 00:16:51

Do you? Do you look at yourself? Do you talk to yourself the same way that you looked at?

Matthew S: 00:16:56

That kind of pure love? Yeah. Yeah, it's funny, because I've had an experience like that. But with a very different emotion, it was a sadness. That was also a hard motion for me to feel it was okay to have, I remember getting to a real deeply sad place in my life. And at the bottom of that feeling, oh, my god, I'm so grateful that I feel so deeply because I feel so alive. And that was cool. Because it, it shifted some of my potential with relating to sadness in a healthier way. I haven't had that same experience with anger. I've had a little bit of that where I'm like, Oh, okay. There are times when my normally quiet disposition, so shows up as anger. And in reflection, even if there was a part of me, that's like, that was pretty unhealthy, not like you were just acting out there with either your partner or your kids. There's this other part that's like, wow, it's interesting that I'm allowing the energy to move through me because I didn't used to, I used to shut it down, clamp it down. And I get where there are times when that's appropriate. It's nice to be able to play with the alternative. And trust that I'm not like completely traumatizing my kids, there's a way to repair out of that. And like you had said earlier, like, there are times I've made peeks of positive, amazing moments with my kids. And other moments, which are the opposite where I'm like, holy in my anger is a big one. At the boundary. They didn't listen to me. That's where I get tripped up a lot. With my anger gets sparked when I feel as if my voice is not being heard. And it's often around like, I have a project Maggi style sometimes. So if I'm like moving the kids along from like, dinner to bedtime routine, if I say, Okay, it's time for this, and I get nothing, like just not even a stair just like as if I didn't say anything, I start the trigger begins. And then if I say like, okay, you know, it's time to move Did you hear me? Then again, if there's signs again, goes bigger than I start to feel even more hurt. And I'm sure that's old. It's nothing to do with my kids. It's like, I grew up in a way that was, I was a quiet kid, I had formed a belief around like, my voice doesn't matter. And I found validation to prove that myself. So it's interesting to I think that's maybe what you were playing to about, like how what's going on with my relationship? How important it is to kind of make those links. Even if in the moment all that shit goes out the window. At least later, I can process it in a way that makes sense. And have a little compassion for myself and distance, my anger from my child and understand that it's less about them and more about some old history I have with myself. Yeah, absolutely.

Byron V: 00:19:55

And that's the case with me. 99% of the time, it is There's so much less about them. There's so much more to do with me. And it's just hitting that nerve. It's that nerve the right way. And, okay. Oh, here it is. And let's get to it. It's interesting. You said the bottom of the sadness was that intense gratitude to be alive. And you haven't experienced that with anger. For me, I totally resonate with underneath that sadness. To me, it feels really good to be really sad. It to me feels way more appealing than just being completely gray or neutral. And at the same time, for me, I think one of one of the distinctions between us is it also feels really good for me to be angry, and not for a prolonged amount of time. In those just quick bursts of that it tempted me to show up louder, more forcefully, just what you shared with a Alright kids Time for bed and you get like, yeah,

Matthew S: 00:21:03

totally. When you I want to ask you about so just the word good when you say it feels good to feel angry sometimes. What do you mean by that? Because I could imagine, like a spectrum of good to the ego versus good to the soul or something like that, like, where's that good live for you around the expression of anger, that does feel good? Yeah,

Byron V: 00:21:21

it feels somatically good. In my body, it feels it feels. That's why it's also hard to put to words and even be more descriptive and just tune in resonates. It's, it's a charged energy. And for me, is well, there's, there's also, weirdly enough, there's clarity I get when I'm angry. And not even necessarily afterwards, when I'm really charged about something. And I'm just talking about it from that charged place. It tends to evoke totally different ideas from me, than if I'm just more kind of neutral on the topic. And that's not

Matthew S: 00:22:10

an example maybe. Sure, for

Byron V: 00:22:12

me. And in business. For example. When I, when I consider my why, or the reason that's driving me to do what I do, I found that the my passion actually resides in some some degree of anger now not an anger at another individual or people but more about an existing status quo.

Matthew S: 00:22:40

So better in the world to kind of be

Byron V: 00:22:43

better. And it's really me that anger is I know, it can be better, I feel a calling to help make it better. As I believe it's an Eastern quote, I'm not exactly sure how it was said or who said it, it was something to the effect of a brick can be used to create great destruction, and it can be used to also build great things. And that's my that's been my relationship to anger. And so when you say how does it feel good, it's the status quo could be you're not listening to me, and we're not getting anywhere. And I told you, it's time to go to bed. And I told you three times three different ways. Not even looking at me. So let's shift the status quo. Let's create a change here. And in that moment, it feels energizing. It feels liberate, it feels like Okay, finally we're getting somewhere. And so when I say good, it doesn't mean justified. It doesn't mean intelligent. It doesn't mean loving. It doesn't mean the right course of action. It feels good to kind of jar that that stone loose and All right now we're getting I think it's hard to describe.

Matthew S: 00:23:55

Yeah, I what I assumed when you said it, because I'm probably projecting is something like it got me out of my mind and into my body. And I say that because I can live there I can live in my mind and forget the body exists. And so anger coursing through my body is a reminder of this thing that I've forgotten so it's a return to that like reality of oh, this body feels so good. When I have feelings that course through it. And then it's complicated by that all that shame stuff. But still I get that I get that piece around like Oh, I feel my body that part feels good. That the words managing, embracing and integrating, maybe could you define and if possible, no quick example of each of these so we can maybe see where else to dive in.

Byron V: 00:24:44

Yeah. Each of those topics we could talk about for hours. Sure.

Byron V: 00:24:51

Let's start with integrating. That's one of my favorite ones. There's that idea of if you can hold two contradicting beliefs simultaneously The you, you reach enlightenment or you reach a greater level of understanding. And to me, there's a lot of that that goes into integration where my tendency is often to look at throwing out the baby with the bathwater. In this case, anger is not healthy. So therefore I should delete all of it from my life. That's not integration, that's me taking it and demonizing it even demonizing myself when I want to bring it up. And so that creates that shame, for me that you were talking about earlier. Integrating it is understanding that maybe by itself in a vacuum, it's not always the most healthy or productive thing. But there's elements perhaps, that are driving it, there's elements there that can be useful, that that can't value that can bring actions that create more of the beautiful things we want. And so being able to bring those into me even more without, without also looking at it, like it's an either or thing like, well, if if I bring in more anger, therefore, I have to also be less patient. Well, maybe I can be both. And that that's really cool paradox. Right? It's exploring that I'm always fascinated with, well, maybe I can be patiently angry. Does that work? Alright, and really patient? And and really patient? Yeah.

Matthew S: 00:26:28

I don't know if that's different. I love it either way. I

Byron V: 00:26:33

mean, it gets me it gets me thinking. Yeah. So then you said, managing or managing it is to me, I've never, I've never been drawn to that word. I just in my head, I see a very corporate management, like the the management, and we have our management team, we're going to manage this thing, almost like it's a wild thing that needs to be tamed. We're going to manage it. We're going to, we're going to analyze it from afar and manage it and give it a set of rules and boundaries. And if it doesn't cross those boundaries, then we're good. So this whole anger, managing anger is, okay, well, first, I'm going to count to three. And then I'm going to take five deep breaths and I not mocking exercises, which help release anger. I just know for me, managing it, that idea has never particularly drawn to the end. And there was a third one, if Forgive me, what was the third one you are embracing? Oh, embracing it. Yeah. That to me is you shared a beautiful example of at the bottom of the sadness was this feeling of gratitude. And it sounds like to me, part of the journey with you with that is you embraced the sadness you instead of resisting it. So for me, paradoxically, when I do embrace, not the anger, and I'm going to really fly off the handle here and just go nuts, and I don't care anymore. But instead, in looking at where I'm, I'm either shaming myself about it, beating myself up over it, over intellectualizing it, this is something I also have a, I have a big tendency to do that. Try to analyze why I get angry. Sometimes it's just getting it out of me is sufficient. And that's, the faster I embrace it, the faster I get through it. And in an animal's, the trauma response is usually immediate, they shake it off, they have a violent ache, they get the emotion out of them, and then they go on their way. And yet, a lot of that gets stored in me. I mean, it's no healthy outlet, if I'm not mindful of embracing it, to release it. So that's, that's been the journey. And it's honestly, that's one of the hardest aspects of it for me, because drawing the line, where do I draw the line with embracing it? To what degree to what extent is embracing it healthy? And that's one of those questions. I don't know. I know for me, if I completely give myself over to it. That's not the answer. And at the same time, we are constantly trying to control it. That's not the answer either. So there there is a balance point in there that I have a challenge finding and navigating. It's tricky.

Matthew S: 00:29:55

That's cool. i You made me think of, well, I thought of the Taylor Swift song I check it off, because I love that song. But also thought of the embracing piece. There's something about I know, like, even the language I use in my mind, in the moment with anger, like there's a certain amount of I want to, ideally, I would just feel a sensations. And that would be my way to be with it. At times, because I'm a chatty mind, I might have a thought. And if I think a certain amount of managing may happen with me where I'm wanting to have the thought, reframed, as I might reframe it for myself in that moment, if it feels useful, like, instead of, I feel so angry, I might say, there's a lot of anger here. And it's, I see it that way, because I'm not always clear. Like, here's a spiritual perspective, I'm not always clear if the anger I'm feeling is my own, or if it's just coming from the environment, which could be my family, or could be the wider world. And there's a moment where it built up and it has to come through me in some way. Maybe because I don't do enough trembling, shaking, dancing, whatever that would do to move it. But if I'm a conduit for it, I would like to be careful about making it too much about me and my dynamic. That's sort of that's an aspiration I have, and a little more like, there's an energy here. It showed up, it showed up for a reason. It doesn't have to be linked to my history. Maybe it is, but maybe it doesn't. And that's paradoxical for me, too, because both of those things are very interesting to me, I simultaneously want to dig into where is this coming from? That is about me and my family? And then also not at all? How can I acknowledge energy, devoid of any attachment to me as an individual?

Byron V: 00:31:55

What for you in the moment? You mentioned a couple things that you do in the moment when you're feeling the anger? One of them was, I could say I'm angry, or I'm perhaps experiencing anger? What what helps you in the moment? What's what's been your relationship to All right, I am experiencing this anger right here right now.

Matthew S: 00:32:16

Well, I'll give you the, the, the extreme version, which I think is hard to talk about. So it would be the moment where I'm so angry, that if I were living in a different society, I would probably hit my child. Like, there's so much anger there, I'm so upset with the behavior. And all I can think to do is control and lash out and punish. And the the impulse that arises sometimes, and I'm not proud of this, I'm aware that it's probably pretty common. The impulse that can come up to the surface is like, Oh, if I had no like, limits here, I would just strike with my hands, I would do something that would hurt this person physically. So that, let's say in those moments, what I tend to do is I know I can tell I'm so angry because my face feels tight. And my vision gets narrower. And I get those kinds of thoughts that are violent. And like, okay, that something needs to shift here at my best. Well, let's say at my worst, I've never hit my kids. But at my worst, I just stay angry and push, verbally push. At my best are things I've tried, like when my daughter who's almost seven, I will say, Hey, do you want to play pushing, and we'll, we'll face each other, I'll get on my knees, and she stands across from me. And we'll put our hands together like we're doing high fives to, you know, high 10. And we push on each other's hands. And my intention there is to make the dynamic physical so we can play it out in a way that's not going to get extra emotional, not going to get dangerously physical. But because there's a physicality to anger, I like that. And I what I always do barn, I always let her win. So she'll push and push until eventually I fall backwards on the carpet. That's bad. That's one of the let's leave it at that for a moment. That's an example.

Byron V: 00:34:19

That's brilliant. I love that you're transmuting the anger and you use when you said it's so often a physical thing. And even when I told you it feels good, it feels good in the body. It is a physical thing. And then when you said that the desire of hey, if I'm really that angry, lashing out at the child physically, and anger can so easily produce that I need to engage with my body in some way. I love how you transmute that into an actual physical game. And then you let them win. It's it's beautiful and for you The experience, I'm assuming, varies depending on the level of intensity, you have the anger, the anger dissipate during that game. Is it pretty instantaneous? Or is it like a cooldown period for you?

Matthew S: 00:35:14

With my daughter, it's pretty quick because we tend to laugh. By the end of it a because it's always kind of funny that like, I know I'm pretending a push, because obviously I could push her recently. But it that part is like ironic and absurd. And so it always makes me feel silly. And it transfers that mood. Like I like I appreciate the reflection, because you added something for me about anger is me wanting to be physical, so be physical in a safe way. That whatever you said, just landed that a little better for me. So thank you for that. I don't know. Did I answer your question?

Byron V: 00:35:53

Yeah, no, you answered it perfectly. And thank you. Because the the absurdity of it is such a wonderful way of looking at it. I had a, I was reading a book the other day, and it said, whether it's a tragedy, or a comedy at the end of the story, if you keep going it all things eventually become a comedy, and certainty and everything. And I recognize now a lot of my anger comes from taking something so intensely, seriously. It's being so this is so important, and immediate, and right now in this way, and this is the complete polar opposite of anything absurd or funny. In fact, I'm angry because it's so obvious and clear and straightforward. Why won't you just acknowledge go to your room? Lina. It's not, it's not difficult. And more I feel this just, it's just so clear, and black and white. And my capacity to see any silliness or absurdity, or the humor, and it was just completely gone. Oh, yeah. Your, your idea to take that into inject the complete antidote, in that moment with the absurdity is just awesome. I love that. And that, to me, it's not the take, you know, count to 10 Take five deep breaths kind of thing. You're actually engaging with the emotion, which is what's so wonderful about it. So thank you for sharing that. It's gold. Yeah,

Matthew S: 00:37:24

that I mean, that's again, at my best, more often, it takes between five minutes to an hour, and depends how I shift the mood, whether it's music, go outside, with or without child, some change in the environment that I know will affect me sound, you know, temperature out in nature, whatever. How about for you? What do you plan to do in those moments of anger, especially peak anger?

Byron V: 00:37:49

Right now I'm actually hearing my wife and my, my four year old son get out. there right now, it's the perfect time. For me, it's, it's, it's a challenge for me, I, at my best, I'm able to see the love that I have for the child in that moment. And I tell I communicate that I'm angry without being in a rage about it. I words, I might be frustrated, but I still tell them, and I don't try to hide it or bottle it or obfuscate the fact that hey, I'm really I am upset with you. I tell them I'm upset with you right now. And I told them why and it's really not so much for them. It's actually for me, it's I need, I need to communicate what what I'm going through and processing. And the more I do that, the more I find the anger dissipates it. For me at my worst, it's it is a lot of escalation and just go to your room. And then that's that. And it's it's also a lot of separation. And like I said, space is so precious for us in the RV. And so we're, we've been spending too much time together or your punishment is if if I'm not going to hit you, then the opposite punishment is we're going to create a boundary between us we're now in timeout, oh, you're going to go to your room. And when I'm more grounded, when I'm angry, I can I can recognize, hey, we need to separate you also, if I'm angry and there's cause for that anger if In other words, I feel like they've they've done something that we have specifically asked them not to do. Maybe they were eating just their food at each other at the table. They crossed the line, punishing them and separating the anger from the punishment is me at my best money with anger is me at my worst and that's when I tend to feel a lot of guilt and shame around it and it also makes it more diff Call for me to manage boundaries in the future, because instead of acknowledging and calling out, hey, let's not do that, I tend to back away from that out of fear of, I don't want to fly off the handle again, I don't want to get upset. And so that's the pattern that I see at my worst. It's it's just intense anger and communication. And then it's me kind of backing away, and not playing the role that I could have the discipline that shows them healthy boundaries. Hmm.

Matthew S: 00:40:35

Yeah, that's so great. That your point teasing apart the, the message and the like, there's a difference in speaking to the emotion versus speaking from the emotion. And they're night and day experience. I know that experience from within myself and as I experienced it from other people's have a lot of a lot of sensitivity to that. I love that you're naming that. I would love us to entertain. Unusual question. And then we're gonna have a chance for checkout just to debrief on what came from today. I imagine you've done something like this before. Byron, the question is, then take a moment if you need, what does your future self want you to know about your relationship? Bangor?

Byron V: 00:41:21

What a great question. Let me take a deep breath and just soak that in. You may not know right now, how, when, why you will cultivate a deeper understanding and an appreciation of your relationship with anger. And you will heal the generational dynamic that you have observed throughout your life with your children. And right now, it is not important to know how it's not important to know why it's important to have faith in yourself. Have faith in your children, have faith in your family. Have faith in a higher power, that you will cultivate that. And, more importantly, to give yourself that patience and that love throughout the entire process. You will continue to make mistakes, you will continue to be angry, you will continue to say things that you will regret, you will continue to do things that you regret. And at the same time, that doesn't mean that you're not leading a difference for your family and for your children. That's that's what I got. Nice.

Matthew S: 00:42:44

All right, I'll pick a shot as never forget that you are beautiful. In so many ways that this experience you're having around shame to anger is a part of your journey here. It is an important journey for you. And for so many people. Your part in it is to dig in to get curious with it. Find a way to be playful with anger. And to express your experience for the benefit of others. Never forget this. Anger is a gift. And you are ultimately a playful being. Yeah, awesome. Yeah. Well, let's do it. Paco Byron, this is just you know, what do you take away from this conversation?

Byron V: 00:43:47

I knew it right when you said it. The transmutation of anger. That's the biggest thing for me. And even your concluding thoughts and your Higher Self you're a playful being. Aren't we all? Are we all men? That really, it strikes me in the solar plexus. And the cliche thing and yet it's very, very true. For me, it's a good cliche. The older I get, the less playful I become. And strangely, the more the more time I advanced through parenthood with children, the less playful I am. And yet, that certainly does not have to be the case and staying connected, that playful energy. I know has and will continue to help me with my relationship with anger. So that's the key thing that I take away.

Matthew S: 00:44:38

Nice, thank you. For me, it was that piece you said about how anger is the is necessitating something physical. Like it's gonna really I'm going to chew on that for a while and look for that. Be curious about that. Ideally be playful with that. So thanks Thank you for that reflection.

Byron V: 00:45:03

This has been awesome that the the exploration and not just the question is who you are and the energy you bring to this has been beautiful. So thank you for having me. Thank

Matthew S: 00:45:14

you. I had no doubt this would be a fantastic journey of a conversation. Thank you, Byron.

Byron V: 00:45:19

Yes man. You're welcome