The Transition into Becoming a Father | 007

Matthew S: 00:00:00

The moment a man becomes a father is a transition that seems hard to prepare for. And once it happens, that man's world is forever transformed. This is Matthew Sloane joining me today for this topic of the transition into becoming a father is Will, Will. And I've worked together at the same company we've never met in person, but we've always collaborated remotely. From the little I know, if you will, I feel you're a thoughtful human being. And I'm really excited to learn more about what you are experiencing as the role of the father settles into your day to day experience. So welcome to the conversation. Thank you very much. Let's get grounded and then we'll share our experience on this topic. So for those listening, feel free to keep your eyes open if you are driving. Otherwise, feel free to close your eyes. Find yourself in a comfortable position. And notice the quality of your contact with the earth be that in a seat, or a chair or a standing position with your feet on the ground. And for now, just notice what is going on in your body pulses, sensations temperature.

Matthew S: 00:01:26

Bring some awareness to your breathing as it is.

Matthew S: 00:01:38

Now bring some more in as to your posture as it is.

Matthew S: 00:01:48

Probably allow yourself to make any adjustments that feel good to you in your breathing and your posture.

Matthew S: 00:01:59

And when you're ready, come on back.

Matthew S: 00:02:05

You're ready to jump in? Well, yeah, definitely. Okay, so let's do our check ins, recent polar headwinds and woes. And you can name the makeup of your family, including ages of kids.

Will: 00:02:20

I'm 35, my wife is 32 I believe my daughter is four months old actually going on five months now. And wins and was probably the biggest win at the moment is we're starting to see glimpses of her personality. She's responding to certain things with likes, dislikes, smiles, a little bit of laughing, her crying is starting to transform to show kind of more nuances of what things bother her and for what different reasons. And that's super great to see. Because that's the kind of stuff I'm excited for is finding out who she is, was with each of these monumental transformations just cause all these physiological and behavioral complications that you'd have to navigate through, you know, it affects your sleep, it affects her mood. She's really hard to predict right now, you know, they said a four month period is kind of a transformative period. But there's a slow progression or progression, depending how you look at it, and takes place at that time. They kind of changed their behavioral platform, if you will, around that age from beings that's like a squid or a lump of clay into just it just something with, you know, a little more depth and a little more give and take. So you just have to navigate those challenges, you have to kind of get through all the tough stuff. And it is the cliche stuff that we all are familiar with, right? It's like the excessive crying It's, yeah, sleep issues, not following a regular nap schedule. You know that she's got to eat so much, but she's way more interested in something else. And so getting her to eat everything that she needs to eat that is gold, and so on. And that comes with a lot of stress and energy and resource. So we just got to get through it. But yeah, yeah, it's good right now. It's gone. Well,

Matthew S: 00:04:11

well, thank you. So for me, let's see, I'd say on the wind side, that my son had a huge wind and that he's now potty trained. So no more changing diapers other than the debris sleeps with. And I always imagine that that would be a huge milestone for him as a marker of some kind of growth that he would understand was a big difference and independence. So I'm just I'm really proud of him that he was able to do this in three days, thanks to a little bit of preparation on our part and a lot of knowledge from his teacher at a preschool or daycare rather. So yeah. Was I would say Say, just navigating some of the how do we parent conversations with my wife, I think, eventually we'll get onto the same page. But there are things that we still haven't had time to talk about, like, things related to either screen time or related to how many toys is enough. So yeah, I just feel some sadness around not having the time to get on the same page with my wife about that stuff. And knowing it'll come, but it can be a challenge until it happens. Indeed, yeah.

Will: 00:05:39

If I can just add one thing to that, yeah, I'd won within the first few months of our daughter's life. And it was a challenge on our relationship. It's something we weren't, you're never really 100% Ready for you know, it's going to be, it's gonna be tough to like, live with it. But we've fallen into a really good rhythm right now. That means our like, Joy gets to come back a little bit. And our sense of humor gets to come back a little bit. And, in fact, it's actually taking on a new form, which is kind of cool, because now we're sharing this new project together. It really is thinking on a project team. Yeah. So it's like, it's a new version of ourselves that we both get to kind of appreciate for the first time. And we've got our systems in place. And so like, that's huge for us.

Matthew S: 00:06:28

That's so funny. You and I are similar in that way, systems oriented? Well, that's the thank you for that. And I'm glad to hear that as well. So why don't we jump in with some of the questions for this topic? Tell me about the role you played as your wife gave birth and what you experienced in that role. Yeah, so the birth the

Will: 00:06:53

labor period began in the morning. And on all the labor period lasted about a day and a half. So we had to stay overnight. The birth itself is only 45 minutes, which from what I hear is actually short, comparatively. And then we were in the hospital for about two days after that. There were complications during labor, that made things difficult, you know, getting the epidural set properly, competent, just regular complications of pain management's and just kind of moving things along and making sure that, you know, the contractions are progressing in a direction and not regressing in any ways, they have to kind of start over again, and it becomes very, very medical and very, very systemized, and you realize, as a partner, how, like little holidays you have in that situation. And so I kind of felt like, I feel so bad, because I wanted to hear from my wife, I just don't know how to serve her, you know, other than just stay out of the way and the doctors and the nurses. But you know, you stay there and you do your thing, and you stay overnight, and you're there to comfort her. And, you know, I began to realize well into it that I had one crucial role, one role. And it was a very crucial role that only I could play. And I had to be the person that she could talk to when she needed to reset, when she needed emotional feedback, when she needed to really express how she felt about something knowing that she wouldn't get any judgments. Or any like, Well, my advice is dot, dot, dot, you know, everyone's doing that, you know. And this is a huge experience for her and she's excited, and she's nervous, and she's scared, and she's confused. This woman who, in every aspect of her life, just killed it, is suddenly, you know, trying to swim for the first time, and she needs someone to reflect with. Yeah, and I got to do that with her. And I got to be that for her. And so it makes me feel pride to know that I got to serve that role. But yeah, I mean, I stood in the way and I felt bad. You know, it's, it's weird and scary. And you just gotta just kind of trust the process. You know, this is something that these physicians do, you know, five times a day, and they've been doing it for years and years and years. And like, this is all happy for them. For You is this completely crazy thing. You just roll with it. You know, it's one of those time periods that goes by so quickly, the lasts so long. And then it's over. And then you have a third person living with you. There's like, no roommate contract. It's just like, yeah, so that's really what it was. But, man, it was it was a crazy experience. For sure. Yeah.

Matthew S: 00:09:38

That's a beautiful roll that like emotional support. And I I don't think I would have been up for that. If my first child that was born was born 10 years before, like when I was much younger. I don't know how you feel about that. But I know that my emotional maturity took some time to develop Yeah,

Will: 00:10:00

I don't know, it's almost like a crash course it's a little bit like boot camp for emotional immaturity. I was thinking to myself, like, how is it that this guy isn't dead? Like how did he and I are have the basically virtually the same level of success, you know, you know, person A is way more equipped than I am or so we've seen verson B is way less equipment I am more so they've seen and yet we're all kind of having the exact same experience. And it's just because for the sheer fact that it is so new, there is no kind of like, you know, preparation course, yet. Just so weird, because it's like one of those fundamental things that our species like why isn't it more obvious and there is Lyme information out there, but they also sifting through it and to at the same time. So yeah, it is it is bootcamp. And not just for preparedness, but yeah, emotionally as well, because you need to be emotional rocks for those around you. Because everybody, including your child is having one of the most emotionally charged experiences of their life. Yeah. And it lasts for a long time, and it's still going on for us.

Matthew S: 00:11:09

I tell myself that the one of the reasons I was less prepared. And I would think that no matter how many conversations I had with people, I would still be unprepared. But the unfamiliarity of the role and what it might be like I think is due to, at least in my circle of friends, there were not opportunities created for me to hear a lot about that experience for the friends that have gone before me and become fathers before I became a father. So I didn't have those conversations that maybe they do happen more often these days. But I hope that in, you know, a setting like this, that we get to stay how normal eight could and should be, be able to have that kind of conversation so that especially new fathers are not like, Oh, I didn't realize that I would have to be in this position or what it felt like for some of the people close to them, or others that are willing to share their story. I think the information is one thing, but the story I think takes another level deeper of like, okay, that's what it might feel like as well. And

Will: 00:12:16

the role of the father is evolving these days. Like, it's, it's not just the balancing of the masculine, the feminine and like, who holds what responsibilities, but it's also like, it just can't get done with one person, you know, handling one set of tasks to a person having another set of tasks, everything is just so fluid now. And then we're so inundated with sensory input and opinions and we're all we have access to information that affects us that's globally links and all sorts of stuff. And you need both parents fully invested in every type of activity. And it's a new thing for it. As I remember, you know, my grandpa used to take pride in the fact that he never had to change a diaper once in his life. And that was his way of saying how amazing his wife was. And she was, she was a great mother. But I remember thinking, like, what do you Why are you proud of that you? You didn't get more involved? Like you need it. And so maybe it's Yeah, as the generations progress, you know, the roles change and, and the role changes required different types of spaces like this one to, you know, get that feedback, because it is complex, you know, and no books really gonna prepare you for it. You just know, you just have to figure it out and do it. And the more you know, rich, the information, the advice you get from others, the better off you're going to be because you'll get a lot of like, oh, that's all girls are better I can sing thank you for the cliche, but see, next time just be sold on a pillow and send it to me because I mean, what I need is hard data. Is this gonna last? Like what parts of my life is it going to affect and how you know? So we're figuring it out? Yeah.

Matthew S: 00:14:02

Well, I'm gonna share my experience with my daughter being born, which was over seven years ago now. So what I remember is that the role I played was really similar to yours as well. And that my I didn't have a lot to offer with regards to the procedure. And the anything medical. I think I was a little prepared to ask questions. And I did maybe a few times to say, okay, what are the benefits of this? What are the risks of that? I probably did that two different times. But really, I found my role to be practicing presence that is like a 36 hour meditation. And because of the heightened stakes, I was able to do it. I don't think normally I would be able to be present that long. But it was sort of that was how my adrenaline was flowing through me. I was just observing and noticing and feeling my body and to whatever degree, this is true, I felt like my energy was managed for the sake of my wife. And for the sake of the room. Of course, I had moments where I could just be there with her. And we could be speaking about anything from snacks you might want to some of the concern she had. And but generally, I think throughout the marathon for me was just keep managing my energy so that I can be, I can help shift the energy in the room towards a more present state. I want to ask you another question. Well, so this the moment you saw your baby, tell me about that experience.

Will: 00:15:47

Yeah, so I hate to say it, like the moment was kind of benign for one, the weekend watching this thing kind of happen slowly over the course of 45 minutes. So you, like the emotion at the beginning is like so high, because especially when you see in TV and movies, like it's like three pushes, and the whole thing is done. And it's like, no, it's like, it's like an entire episode like the sopranos like you have to sit there for a really long time. And so by the time the baby happens, the motion kind of subsided by them. But what really got me though, was seeing baby with mother for the first time, and feeling like a family. That was powerful. And I think I just felt such pride for my wife, I think at the moment, because you see her put in so much incredible work. And, and you know that she's been carrying the child for nine months, and, and she's had to sacrifice so much in order to do that. And you finally get to see the result of everything, you know. And it's also so cool to see your baby's face when the best visualization you had of the face was maybe a really good shot on a sonogram. You know, we see a profile, and those are like, Oh, look at that big upper lip. I want our family has that blah, blah, blah. Isn't this exciting? And then you see no, look at all the details of her beautiful face. She's her own person. And here's your first breath. And that, I think, yeah, seeing them together was like the real thing for me. But yeah, I mean, the emotions go up and down and change so drastically to that even that, like, last a few minutes before you suddenly plunged back into adrenaline rush, because someone's telling you to move, and they gotta figure something else out. And there wasn't a lot of magic. I'm not gonna lie. It didn't exist.

Matthew S: 00:17:37

Yeah. That's really sweet. I was starting to feel something as you are speaking to looking at your wife with your baby. That's really a sweet moment. For me, I remember. So my wife had a C section. And there was this weird moment when they had a curtain up so that I wasn't looking at the surgery, and I could still be next to my wife Sookie. And so we're sitting there. And at one point, the one of the nurses called me over to the side. And they're in Oh, because we're like, Okay, this is how it happened. So the baby was taken out. And then I was called over to go meet the baby. And as I walked, I glanced and out of the courtroom, I saw, what I can only imagine was like, guts, like my wife's innards. And I didn't look but I could, it was like corner of my eye view. And suddenly, I felt I was like, Oh, my God, that's where this is a surgery. Like, I'm in a surgical procedure. And my wife's guts are all over the place kind of thing. I it wasn't like I saw the organs, but I just could see enough like red and color, or I was like, That's not just her belly. And that freaked me out. And so right after that being introduced to my daughter, it was like, I didn't have time to process any of that. Fear or shock. But I had heard my daughter's scream already. And that was when I started to feel a lot of feeling like I was like, oh, and I could just feel the motion coming up. And as the nurse gave her to me to hold, I just started bawling. I was crying. And I think the when I feel like the what that emotion was, I think the statement behind it or the thought behind it was like, oh my god, we're all alive. And for me, like it was just this, like, the my daughter's alive. My wife is gonna make it like who knows what can never happen in a surgery. It's always a risk. And I'm alive and I can feel my aliveness in this moment more than I typically do is just like a rush of like aliveness in the room and in myself, is such a cool feeling.

Will: 00:19:55

Well, how long before you could share with your wife?

Matthew S: 00:20:00

that experience?

Will: 00:20:02

Yeah. Because I mean, she was still under right. So yeah, you and your daughter for a certain amount of time, but yeah,

Matthew S: 00:20:07

it was we I think also my wife was still anesthetized, so I wasn't going to bring up stuff to her that moment, I waited, I think until at least a day later to share some of my experience around that. For the time being, it was just like, Okay, let me just make sure her needs are addressed. And I'll process this in my own way.

Will: 00:20:30

Yeah, totally. Totally. I apologize for not calling this but she's lucid than during the experience. But more than that, okay, so she is she is there present with you guys, but just in a different way?

Matthew S: 00:20:43

Yeah. Yeah, it was the share another detail that I think it was, there was a moment when the anesthesia DNS petition was testing for the effectiveness of the anaesthetic. And what they do is they'll take like, it's something like a popsicle stick that's been sharpened or something like that, where it would it won't hurt, but it will poke until they take something to see if that area where they're going to cut. It's actually feeling anything. And I could almost feel it. Because I know what anesthetic is, like from other experiences like the dentist, I could almost feel what she was feeling my wife when they were poking her. And she was saying like, No, I still feel that. And it was like, it was so eerie to then know that okay, they're gonna up the anaesthetic. And what would that mean that it means that some greater risk of some kind, and me not knowing enough about that, it's just like, it was a scary situation. And for her, it was very scary. Because, you know, we had to take the we had to trust that the next dose was enough. And in the testing of that prod, we'll just stick that that's all that was needed before they actually cut her open. So there was a lot of intensity in the space already. Right? Yeah. Yeah, well, now, so now that you're on the other side of that will, what are you now experiencing? You may have alluded to it before, but maybe some specific moment or something that you're experiencing now that you did not expect? Well,

Will: 00:22:18

yeah, so yeah. Well, a lot leading up to it, is that, you know, man, it's tough, but it's gonna be the most incredible experience of your life, and you're gonna love her so much, so hard, and it's gonna change you. And, and, and, and it is, it's happening, it totally is. But that first few months, you don't really get a lot of rewards. And so it's very hard to feel a lot of joy. And it's very hard to feel. I mean, there were times where we thought to ourselves, like, did we make a mistake? Like, was this just the wrong move for us? Are we not parents, you know, and you just have to kind of grin and bear because that lasts a while. In the beginning. It really does. And now, like I said, before, we are starting to get some rewards, we're getting a smile, you know, I come home from work. She sees me for the first time for the day, she smiles and gets bashful, only buries her head and like, oh, yeah, like a great call response. You know, that means something. Whereas the poor, the, I think the best you can hope for is maybe they look at you for a little longer than they normally do. Like those games. Yeah. And that has to be enough. And you're paying so much emotionally and with your time and with your energy to get just that. That yeah, there's a lot of times where you're wondering if, like, if you made a mistake if the whole thing is worth it. And I didn't expect that level of difficulty. I didn't expect that level of like, non reciprocity. Yeah. But it's okay. It is okay. They are a new human on Saturday, if they have no idea what they're doing, then you just get the dog gotta be okay with that. Yeah. Man, I before coming on, I thought to myself, like how do we talk about was that making people celebrated to be dads, because I really like this talk phase, but it's getting better. It really is it really Yeah.

Matthew S: 00:24:16

I can relate to that, too. I think there was, I know, it's easier to talk about, or it's more common to talk about postpartum depression for women, but less so for the fathers. Like it doesn't necessarily make as much sense. But I think I felt, I think my wife felt her own version of it. And I felt my own version of it. And it was this kind of like, I had to, I suppose I was grieving my old life. And because of how much was lost with regard to freedom of time, or freedom in general. I think that was a grieving process that I didn't realize was It's just going to happen and had to happen. And so it's happening mostly unconsciously, or whatever heaviness I felt, I realized later, like years later, oh, that was probably me feeling some kind of depression, about the loss of my former life, which is okay, also that that's normal. But I didn't realize I might have to experience some kind of grieving in that way, and that it would feel heavy. And then I would maybe judge myself for that heaviness, in the midst of looking at my daughter. And even though I know her smile, in the first month is not about me, it's probably gas. It's still like, there's this beautiful human being. And still, I have this heaviness around this loss of my former life, and sort of reconcile those two things. I think it took me some time. Before I could feel that and move through it, and then be like, Okay, we're past that part. And of course, as time goes on, like you said, four months, like, there's more, more rewards. I experienced that as well. And my

Will: 00:26:05

wife described it like, it's like losing a family member, a close member, because you're right, there's, and that that person you lost is yourself, you'll you'll Yeah. And you didn't know that that was on the line. And you know, that the loss would be so sudden, and so drastic, but it is, and yeah, you're right. Depression, totally universal thing. I mean, that absolutely describes what both of us are going through. But it's okay, you know, yeah, it's just a weird, transformative period.

Matthew S: 00:26:39

To say the least. So speaking on transformation, who do you feel you've become? Now? What's different about you, now that you have a child in your family?

Will: 00:26:52

Well, the one thing I was really hoping to get out of being a dad was a sense of self actualization. You know, I've always been a person who's always tried to get like, accomplish the next goal, right? Go to college, then go to graduate school, get this job, and then get that job, then get that job. You know, all that kind of stuff. Like there's always a next step. And it's just this constant unsatisfied need of like, self actualization, knowing that I needed I can I get to wear those pants now? Yeah. I got that with, you know, being a dad. And I got it all at once. And so it's great in the sense of like, yeah, I have a voice in the room, because I'm a father now. And I'm doing the real challenge, right? I'm going through it. But at the same time, it's almost like you cheated, because it just happened to you. You didn't? It's all in the Union really, aren't it? You know, but you're there now. You know, I just got hired for the role and whether or not I feel like I'm qualified, I'm in and out. So get the word. You know, it is very much like a self actualization just not the type of sucks self actualization that I expected. Again, because I don't feel like I made it per se. But you know, there is nowhere to go from here. Yes, you're the dad now. So be the dad.

Matthew S: 00:28:11

Yeah, what is that? What's that like for you having that? It's almost like I hear it as commitment that you you made before it happened. And now there's no Well, I don't know how you feel it as a choice. Now. I suppose everything is a choice. But that, how do you experience that current commitment? Well,

Will: 00:28:31

it's, it's forced me to kind of reanalyze my priorities, you know, like how much those other goals matter to me. Like, I'm asking myself right now, because am I okay, if I never accomplish x, then for the first time, we're starting to say yes. And I'm starting just cut things out of my life. Like, no, this doesn't matter anymore. This doesn't matter anymore. This is cool goal, but we're gonna push that down, the line will maybe come back to that later. Or maybe it's gonna transform into something else. Yeah. Because now all my attention is focused on this new family, man, and I'm okay with that. Because the sense of pride and the sense of accomplishment that I normally get from these goals, that also comes on a regular basis, because she's growing so fast and accomplishing so much. So like you say that driving spirit is being satisfied. And it's cool because I'm really new to this, but I'm really happy just to live in this space for a while. It's like you've reached the platform, the mountain, why don't you set up base camp and just here for a while. So that was good. I'm really excited about experiencing that for the first time. Tomorrow, we'll see where it goes next. Because, you know, she's gonna start to do our own things and maybe who knows, maybe because being an old dad does can become old hat to me. I'm gonna want something different. I don't know but it's okay. It's okay now. Yeah.

Matthew S: 00:30:00

I would say for me, I relate to that desire for self actualization. I don't think I had as much in mind before fatherhood. But I recognized in the midst of fatherhood, that that's what was going on that I was being tested in ways that I had never been tested before. And not so much forced, but impelled to make certain changes about my mindset, you know, similarly, what are my priorities, I think I put some of my artistic side creative work on the side, because I put it down for a while, because I didn't have as much energy to give to something outside of work and home life. And that has since shifted, that I've, my kids are old enough now that I have been able to carve out more space, there's less of me, giving to them, I still give but there's more, more for me to play with. So who knows how that'll appear for you. But that's, I'm grateful for that. Think of fatherhood as a dojo. It's a place where all the stuff that's not worked out in me gets brought to the surface, and then I get to do something about it. If I'm ready, or so choose. And then here's another question for you. If you could wave a magic wand and make something different in your new role as a father, what might that be?

Will: 00:31:24

Probably, to have this be my second child and not my first. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So I could already have my own personal understanding of what to expect. I'm relying less and less on the advice and insight of others because like, even if they're right on in the way that they described, you know what to expect in fatherhood, it's nothing compared to going through it yourself for the first time. But looking back in my own time being and digest these past few months, you know, hindsight really is 2020. And in retrospect, it's like, okay, I get why this unfolded the way that it did. It all makes sense now, but only because I've gone through it. And I think if I had that for maybe the first two or three years, and this child wife had already had a kit before them, that would help out a lot. You know, I've heard people say that, you know, going from one to is much easier than going from zero to one. I doubt and I tend to agree with that. Just kind of thinking about it. Like, I don't think that going from one to two just doubles your workload. I think going from zero to one is so dramatic and scary and confusing. Like going from one to two, it's like, well, I've already done this task 1000 times before is to do it one more time. You know, I've taught this task to other people, or we already have systems in place in this kind of thing. Well, I know exactly how long my child is going to have this complication till they get over it. Yeah. And yeah, I guess I would want to have a second kid. Honestly, it was in the way of saying, I wish I was better at this, honestly.

Matthew S: 00:32:58

So yeah. Yeah. I think for me, let's see, are you 20? I don't always think about, I try not to think about my answers to these questions. So I find myself almost putting myself on the spot to see what's there. And I'm coming up blank for a moment. I could wave a magic wand and make something different in my role as a father. Well, I mean, if it was that easy, I would say, and this has come up in other episodes, just that I would be less reactive. So that if my one of my kids does something that irks me, that I'm able to remain present and not fazed by my reaction to it. There are things my kids will do that feel personal, even though I know they're not like on you know, actually, I'm like, no, they're just having a hard time. And I still am a sensitive being I suppose. So I take things personally. And I wish I didn't. But then if I lost that I might lose some other of the benefits that come with being sensitive. So

Will: 00:34:07

yeah, that's that's the question that I'm tricky. It's because even though it's a magic wand, you can do anything along with it. But you still feel like something is being sacrificed in order to have the thing that you want, like breasts and stuff. I already had that as a kid. I might reminisce back to like, talking to my wife, hypothetically right now. Yeah. Like, no, it was like, we were just first figuring it out. And it was scary. And it was exciting. And it was just this amazing slice of our life that is 100% unique, and we'll always remember it, right? I mean, time does slow way down, way long. And I knew we could all stand to have more things like that in our lives, you know, slow down time for us. So yeah, thinking about it again. Do I really, really want to already have that experience or do I want to gain it now? The Excellence and the challenges Yeah,

Matthew S: 00:35:00

that's a perfect frames of the magic one question. i It has its huge downside of not having the experience that is necessary to, to gain from the challenge, let's say. This is my last question, what are you grateful for, as a new father,

Will: 00:35:20

you know, the other thing I was really looking forward to about being a dad that seems to be like it's really going to happen is I get to actually be there for somebody, you know, in a way that I wasn't able to be there for the people in my life. Mainly, because I've got this child now that has 100%, trust and love, you know, when they are with me, and everything they're experienced, for the first time they're experiencing with me or with their mother with both of us. And we are their life. And, you know, helping people in the past, I try to help my friends and my family, you know, you give what you think is appropriate, and what you think they need or mingle with asked for. And you're also finding out that, like, the thing that you did prolong the help that you gave them is still going through its own filter on their end of like, you know, they're taking everything with a grain of salt, or they're, you know, they they hear what you're saying, but they have their own experience, they're kind of going to do a little shift or change a little bit. Not that it's good, or it's bad, but it's just, it's this fun, neutral, emotionally thing. But it also makes me think, you know, retrospect, like, well, then what did you What do you need me for? Like, why? Like, why am I here to help you, you know, maybe you just wanted the extra opinion. And that's okay. It's not always like that, of course, like, you can help people, they can genuinely grateful for the help you give. But you know, that when your child that they are looking to you for everything, so I really get to like pour my heart into the experiences that I share with my child or into the the advice that I give my child or whatever the case may be, and know that it's being 100% received. And if it's not being 100% received, then that's something that Michelle and I will have to work on together. You know, like, how can we connect more? Is there something that I'm not providing? Oh, no, I just, I don't know not that I need to be somebody sage in order to feel good about myself. But it just, there's just happens to be a good feeling, you know? Yeah, it's a village organ damage where the, the Masters there's no like, there. So that's cool. That is That is really cool to copy that. And again, now because I need to do that, so that I feel better about myself, because I know that I finally get to give something of such value to somebody else. Yeah,

Matthew S: 00:37:49

that feels good. Like,

Will: 00:37:53

they will see. I mean, right now, it's just just be there when they're whining. And if they wake themselves up and about to sleep. I mean, the playbook is pretty simple at this point. But that's what makes those special loans that are starting to occur now, like those sorts of specials. If I tickle her, and she laughs for the first time, I got to share a completely genuine loving experience with that person that had nothing to do with their, with their needs for food, or sleep or anything. It was just a moment of joy, literally authentic. And just knowing that I have the power to provide that to somebody, because of how they see me and because of how much I care about them. Yeah, I can't wait to do that. 1000 more times, as they grow up. I'm really looking forward to the teenage years where, you know, like, their problems are becoming really complex, but they're still so new at everything. I remember from my own life, that's why I need a lot of guidance. And I just, I'm like, Put me in coach, I'm ready. Let's talk about it. You know, who do you like at school who's bothering you? Like, whatever, whatever it is, let's just figure it out together.

Matthew S: 00:39:00

Yeah. Sweet. For me, I'm grateful for the adventurous quality of being a father. And by that, I mean, there's the inner work that has its own adventure. And there's also the just noticing how the dynamic shifts with between my kids and I were, you know, as a baby, there's a dynamic, right? I'm pretty much commanding everything and it happens, other than they're crying and pooping. No, I don't control that. But as they age, I get to be more and more in this dynamic where I'm like, Oh, I I got to really pay attention to their voice and their wisdom as well. And loosen my desire is for control. And I think that's that kind of adventure that like seeking of truth and that seeking of evolving as a human In Bing, it makes me feel like I'm even more connected to the whole of the planet with regard to that kind of lesson like how does, how do human beings give up a little control and have more attention on connection. And I think spiritually that sort of like an age we're in, and I get to be in this microcosm of it in my family setting. And I do believe that any of that effort I put in, in my family setting has this tiny ripple effect that goes out to the world. And similarly with anyone else doing that kind of work to just be present. That does ripple effects add and make for something grant. So I suppose I feel grateful for that adventure. And the, the purpose I feel behind it, and the meaning. Yeah,

Will: 00:40:53

that was almost my answer to when else versus? Yeah, like, really? Yeah, yeah, no, for sure. Like the idea that it's, you know, yeah, everything we do in life has an impact on everything around us, right? butterfly wing, causing an avalanche, all that good stuff. But being a father, and helping to raise a child, you see that impact action, you know, you have an experience with a child, you know, that is going to shape them in a certain way, they're going to carry that with them for the rest of their life, and they going to shape other people as a result of that. They're gonna shape the world as a result of that, who knows, you may make somebody that has a real impact. And it's that feeling that limitless possibility, you know, in a new life, and knowing how much influence you have on it. And I think just the other day, enjoy nice like, yeah, I get to, like, this is what the legacy is, if you ask me, it's not like somebody carrying the name up, you're gone. It's, it's knowing that you did something on your time in this earth, that's gonna leave something behind and like you said, have ripples on the world around you. You feel it for sure. Early. As I look forward in the future, I'm feeling it.

Matthew S: 00:42:02

Nice. Yeah. Cool. We've never talked about ripple effects like that. So that's cool to hear that you resonate. Let's do our checkout question. So what is one thing you want to take away from this conversation will

Will: 00:42:16

probably just a calmness and you know, a little more security, knowing that there are more dads out there that are thinking about the same things I'm thinking about, and having the same challenges. I mean, that already just kind of remembering that is is enough to kind of like navigate these really difficult first few months. And I don't know, man, I look forward to talking again about it, you know, any years time or maybe five years time, and, you know, because I know the story is gonna be different. Yeah.

Matthew S: 00:42:50

For me, yeah, I'm taking away a reconnection to that moment that started it all, for our family, that birth my daughter, and how important it will be for me to hold that memory and to continue to tell that story, both to my daughter and other family members so that it's just part of our family, culture and history.

Will: 00:43:16

Yeah, I'm sure they would love to hear that story.

Matthew S: 00:43:19

Well, thank you so much for joining us today. Well, my joining me, who says it's a real pleasure, I appreciate it. Yeah, thank

Will: 00:43:28

you so much. This is really great.